Moroi Mind Whammy

Was it "right" for Lissa to try to use persuasion on Rose to get her to stay? Was it selfish, i.e. she wanted Rose with her or was it altruistic, i.e. she wanted Rose safe?

Lissa's behavior throughout Shadow Kiss, for me at least, seems deporable for a best friend. She did not seem to have the same connection with Rose as she did in the first book. It seemed as if their friendship drifted or as if Rose valued the friendship more than Lissa. Lissa is shown to be a progressive thinker but I feel as if she still harbors the same dubble standard's that the society holds, i.e., "they come first." She still seems to view as if it is Rose's duty and purpose in life to put herself second in every stuation. That's why I throughly enjoyed Rose setting her straight at the end of Shadow Kiss.

I mean, what kind of a best friend doesn't notice if her friend loves another? Or who jumps to conclusions, like when Lissa thought that Rose would intentionally not protect Christaian. In conparison, Christian seems a better friend to Rose.

What Lissa should have done was understand where Rose was comming from. She healed Christian didn't she? Why was she so quick to deny Rose her request to save Dimetir? Lissa should have sent Rose along with the best wishes. Rose should have been able to get funds from Lissa. As a best friend Lissa should have done everything within her power to help Rose accomplish something that ment so much to her.

Her reasons seem entirely selfish.

I think the relationship suffered b/c of the boys. Girls drift apart a little as they make room for the men in their lives. Christian was an obvious wedge and Dmitri a secret one. So that they didn't have the same relationship is normal.

But I agree, you'd think Lissa would know Rose and her "they come first" mentality. No matter how reckless and volatile she is, she'd never turn down an assignment like that.

I totally agree and i just hope that in the next book Lissa comes to her senses and helps Rose save Dimitri. If she can bring Rose back from the dead then why can't she bring Dimitri . . . I mean hes not fully dead, right? But over all i fell that Lissa attitude towards the friendship is off balance, she relies on Rose to much as a Guardian and not enough as a friend. if she was so distracted with learning her spirit powers and playing with her boy toy then i think she would have seen Rose's heartache and love for Dimitri. I really do hope Lissa comes to her senses and realize she sent her best friend to kill her one true love, alone, at a time when she really needs a friend.

I agree...I felt more and more while reading Shadow Kiss that Lissa was pretty selfish. Sure, she has a good heart in the sense that she wants to help heal others (like working in the clinic)...but that she wouldn't even offer to heal Dimitri for Rose, her supposed BEST FRIEND?!? That angered me. The word b**** was on my tongue.

I also agree that once Lissa hooked up with Christian things changed. And in a way, it's normal, you see it all the time. Young and new love is exciting and they want to be together all the time. Friends of the same sex get moved to the back burner. However, I was starting to resent the "they come first" thing because if Rose had communicated in some way to Lissa what was happening in her love life, or made her feelings know that she missed Lissa and wanted to hang out with her more, things would have been different. Maybe Lissa wouldn't have been as selfish. I don't know.

I really hope Dimitri can be redeemed. Don't go, Dimitri!!

I always got the sense that Rose was the one that glued the friendship together and that Lissa took Rose for granted. So it wasn't that Rose didn't seek our Lissa's friendship but that Rose kept this from Lissa b/c it was something (the only thing) that was solely hers. Well...there was the secret and get Dmitri in trouble part too. But to Adrian, their feelings was so clear (ok...maybe the auras gave it away) but Natalie (?) saw it too and she wasn't nearly as close to Rose as Lissa was.

But it was also made clear that Rose felt she had to hold back from telling Lissa stuff because it would upset her. Lissa DEFINITELY took (takes) Rose for granted. She's like back-up, second choice for when Christian isn't around. Remember the ball from Frostbite? Christian wasn't able to go, or didn't want to, or something, and Lissa begged Rose to go. It just felt like "second choice".

I hope I don't offend, but it seems like oftentimes Lissa has her head up her @$$ when it comes to Rose. Best friends ought to notice when one is smitten, walking around with a goofy/dreamy look on their face or when they react when the one with whom they're smitten comes into the room. But Lissa notices NONE of this! She's more concerned with herself and Christian. I get it that she's Royal, but she shouldn't have to act like a snob.

Lissa failed to notice pre-Christian. Remember Natalie and Victor saw it in Vampire Academy and Lissa didn't really start dating Christian until Frostbite (or at the latest at the end of VA). In other words, total stranger saw Rose and Dmitri while Lissa did not....even when Christian wasn't such an understandable distraction.

Christian and Lissa were DEFINITELY together in VA, granted it was more toward the end.

I suppose I'm disappointed that they made Lissa so fragile...and so clueless. I know Rose is the strong one, but does Lissa really need to be so weak? I swear, I'm not a feminist. I just don't believe that there needed to be that big a I guess the word is dichotomy between the two friends.

I think Lissa was way too preoccupied with her responsibility in the Royal world on one side, with her peachy love affair on the other, and also with her spirit practice. Plus, she's just too used to being taken care of. And too damn fragile, it takes SO little to snap her into "manic-depressive scary Lissa". It always pissed the hell outta me when Rose couldn't open her heart to Lissa and get comfort cause she was worried not to burden miss "Little Brittle Princess".

I admired her when she stood up to the queen and said that "dhampir lives are also precious", but when it comes to her best friend she doesn't seem to reason that way anymore. She doesn't once realize that Rose is sacrificing herself, her own life, her own dreams, her own pleasures in order to become Lissa's shadow. For example, she chooses to move to the Royal Court knowing that this will also affect Rose, but she doesn't once wonder if this is what Rose also wants.

This annoyed me from book 1 and I just couldn't understand how Rose could take things so lightly, even if they'd been drilled into her mind since babyhood. Especially since she doesn't seem so resigned when it comes to her mother's situation. It made my heart sing when Rose finally starts getting pissed over the they come first slogan and starts wanting to do things for herself. And it surprised me that Dimitri felt the same, the reason why he read his Western novels made me love him that much more.

There are parts that literally broke my heart: when she's mistreated by the queen (I can't believe she wasn't more upset after such humiliating remarks), when she says that the Princess is the one that matters while she's just expendable, when she gets excited like a little kid over her golden manicure. That made me so damn sad. And it made me hate selfish Lissa so damn much.

Just a big fat, "AMEN" to your whole post.

i got really really mad at the end of shadow kiss when Lissa wanted Rose to stay. it's so annoying at it reminds me of those girls that you see during school that always get what they want.

I wonder how much of our perception of Lissa is colored by the therapist that Rose was seeing. It's odd how a Moroi wanted Rose to see other Moroi as selfish and the Dhampirs as overly selfless. It was good b/c you could tell that she was interested in her patient first and her culture second.

But other than Lissa being preoccupied by first love, and missing all the signs of Dmitri, what else did Lissa do that made her seem so selfish? Rose had always planned on going where Lissa went. They had talked about it often. So that Lissa chose to go to Court and the larger school really isn't all that selfish. It's not like the two girls hadn't discussed it before. Granted it's been a while since I read this book but what are the other indications?

Maybe I should move this over to Characters too.

Magdalene wrote:

I think Lissa was way too preoccupied with her responsibility in the Royal world on one side, with her peachy love affair on the other, and also with her spirit practice. Plus, she's just too used to being taken care of. And too damn fragile, it takes SO little to snap her into "manic-depressive scary Lissa". It always pissed the hell outta me when Rose couldn't open her heart to Lissa and get comfort cause she was worried not to burden miss "Little Brittle Princess".

I admired her when she stood up to the queen and said that "dhampir lives are also precious", but when it comes to her best friend she doesn't seem to reason that way anymore. She doesn't once realize that Rose is sacrificing herself, her own life, her own dreams, her own pleasures in order to become Lissa's shadow. For example, she chooses to move to the Royal Court knowing that this will also affect Rose, but she doesn't once wonder if this is what Rose also wants.

This annoyed me from book 1 and I just couldn't understand how Rose could take things so lightly, even if they'd been drilled into her mind since babyhood. Especially since she doesn't seem so resigned when it comes to her mother's situation. It made my heart sing when Rose finally starts getting pissed over the they come first slogan and starts wanting to do things for herself. And it surprised me that Dimitri felt the same, the reason why he read his Western novels made me love him that much more.

There are parts that literally broke my heart: when she's mistreated by the queen (I can't believe she wasn't more upset after such humiliating remarks), when she says that the Princess is the one that matters while she's just expendable, when she gets excited like a little kid over her golden manicure. That made me so damn sad. And it made me hate selfish Lissa so damn much.

Damn! YOu took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you.

I do believe that them being best friends should make Lissa see that Rose is infatuated with someone although you could probably forgive her for not guessing who he is. But that should still be obvious to Lissa. I can't believe that she didn't get that until the end of Shadow Kiss. That pissed me off. And in Frostbite when Rose suddenly turns bitchy to Tasha. HELLO!!

Lissa should know that Rose doesn't go from one day liking the person to the next day hating them and being a bitch to them. (And Rose definitely had a right. Tasha was trying to steal her man. Although not then but... you catch the drift.) And Lissa would have known about Tasha asking Dimitri to be the new guard because HER boyfriend is Tasha's nephew. Doesn't that give her a slight clue. GOD!!

I loved Deirdre. She is a kick-ass therapist. I can't believe that she actually helped Rose get over the mantra that she trained for for her entire life. THat would have been tough. But thankfully even Dimitri helped with that. Thank you.

And also I do not think that Rose is expendable. So Tatiana that bitch could shove it. First off, it only has a handful or less of FEMALE guardians and Rose is one of them. Therefore, why get rid of them if they are so rare. Secondly, Rose was the best of her class when she dropped out the first time. She did nothing for two years and trains for like 3 months or 4 months and kicked everyone's ass again. It didn't matter if she had Dimitri's help or not cause she would have pushed herself to protect Lissa. She then goes and kills two Strigoi by herself (with some distractions in the form of her friends) although the general escape plan was hers when she was still a student. Also one of the Strigoi was ancient and powerful and she killed him. Then she goes and kicks even more ass with Christian and then the group. Expendable... I think NOT!

Rose will be the best guardian if she comes back and even Christian had to admit that so if the queen cannot see her potential she needs to remove the stick up her ...you know what and open her eyes. Just because your great-nephew is interested in her doesn't mean anything. And she is such a hypocrite since she has that male blood whore at her beck and call.

Lissa needs to find time to hang with Rose as friends and let Rose actually talk about her problems for a change and maybe Lissa would have gotten the secret relationship before anyone.

Ok.. rant is over.

I'm so out...
essa.

greatavatar wrote:

I can't believe that she didn't get that until the end of Shadow Kiss. That pissed me off. And in Frostbite when Rose suddenly turns bitchy to Tasha. HELLO!!

Lissa should know that Rose doesn't go from one day liking the person to the next day hating them and being a bitch to them. (And Rose definitely had a right. Tasha was trying to steal her man. Although not then but... you catch the drift.) And Lissa would have known about Tasha asking Dimitri to be the new guard because HER boyfriend is Tasha's nephew. Doesn't that give her a slight clue. GOD!!

no. its not that obvious. i'd have to say if lissa actually saw dimitri beyond being a cute guardian, it would have been earth-shattering. and, it likely was.

it takes lissa minutes to even make the connection that all those months spent training together, all that time she spent training without whining or complaint or comment, even the accusation of rape, etc. had no reaction at all. maybe if lissa even considered dimitri as a real person, not as a professional, a protector, or just a lackey, she would also have thought of it as a crush at best, like rose did, but not as a lover. lissa would not have ever expected it at all, and until rose broke down, she never did.

as Magdalene points out, she was also preoccupied. add to that, being a princess, has it's own social blinders. she has always had family guardians, and likely had never been exposed to dhampir who weren't guardians. her brother would have thought differently, but indeed she really only knows the royal moroi at the academy. there might be some racism in that lissa might not even think of dimitri as being attractive, its hard to even know what lissa thinks of ambrose beyond his looks and the queen's 'fascination', or of dimitri and the other dhampir guardians/novices, but it's likely contributive.

i doubt that lissa even thinks about dimitri or mason as being romantic or sexy, rose would notice that, and she doesn't. (um, right ?)

as for tasha, lissa would have noticed that rose was being brash when asking about the scar on her cheek and by her reaction to finding out about her job. lissa is somewhat coloured by her own admiration of both christian, and his aunt, and also notes that dimitri really likes her. IMO, lissa can't see why rose can't get over popular opinion, seeing how brave and courageous tasha is, etc.

when rose's reaction to tasha later on becomes curt, lissa won't see that as jealousy, more likely lissa sees rose as having made her own snap judgement, that other people think tasha is crazy, or just irresponsible, dangerous and wrong, and thinks badly of rose for having that reaction too. I can't imagine that jealousy comes to mind at all for lissa, and i don't think lissa even pays attention to dimitri spending time with rose. i can imagine that even if someone told lissa that dimitri was sleeping with rose, she would deny it,

lissa might even deny it, if rose told lissa herself, she seems to react that badly to the news.

greatavatar wrote:

I loved Deirdre. She is a kick-ass therapist. I can't believe that she actually helped Rose get over the mantra that she trained for for her entire life. THat would have been tough. But thankfully even Dimitri helped with that. Thank you.

she really wasn't fighting her therapy that much, deidre wasn't that great or not-great, she just provoked those issues that rose tried to hide away and ignore because of her friendship.

at the end, rose didn't get over her mantra or refuse to protect lissa in the end, she decides that her life has to come first, her love for dimitri was crushing her, and his love and his betrayal was more important to her, and if she didn't mourn him, she could never get over any of her loss.

ultimately, she will come running back once she has given lissa some time to be independent, i can't imagine being chained to another person for so long as not being brutal.

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And also I do not think that Rose is expendable. So Tatiana that bitch could shove it. First off, it only has a handful or less of FEMALE guardians and Rose is one of them. Therefore, why get rid of them if they are so rare. Secondly, Rose was the best of her class when she dropped out the first time. She did nothing for two years and trains for like 3 months or 4 months and kicked everyone's ass again. It didn't matter if she had Dimitri's help or not cause she would have pushed herself to protect Lissa. She then goes and kills two Strigoi by herself (with some distractions in the form of her friends) although the general escape plan was hers when she was still a student. Also one of the Strigoi was ancient and powerful and she killed him. Then she goes and kicks even more ass with Christian and then the group. Expendable... I think NOT!

most likely, if the 'rebellion' failed to gain public support, or if things had gone very badly in the assault on the academy. rose would have had to leave anyway.

to gain support after the tragedy, the queen would have stepped in, rose would have been singled out for assaulting and leaving royal moroi to be killed, etc. likely she would have been forced to leave the academy at best, at worst, she would have been imprisoned or executed for conspiring in the strigoi assault, etc. mainly, the queen would have what she wanted, rose would never be able to interfere with her plans for adrian, or for lissa, and would never be accepted as a guardian or a person who would be allowed to interfere with lissa's future.

its hard to say wether the guardian council will accept rose if she hasn't graduated or taken the promise, hunting strigoi isn't the measure of success as a guardian, it's protection. the queen might just step in to make it harder when rose comes back, no matter what adrian would be able to accomplish to help.

i.e. royalty, gets away with murder all the time.

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Rose will be the best guardian if she comes back and even Christian had to admit that so if the queen cannot see her potential she needs to remove the stick up her ...you know what and open her eyes. Just because your great-nephew is interested in her doesn't mean anything. And she is such a hypocrite since she has that male blood whore at her beck and call.

the queen's _secret_ blood whore. also her *expendable* blood whore. see above. i don't think rationality will work, she only hears the gossip and makes inferences, so it's not as if rose being an amazing 17 year old girl killing strigoi single-handed will impress her, or give her any priviledge or advantage when the guardian council/queen chooses a guardian for lissa, or adrian, or the other royal moroi, etc.

what the queen will hear is that rose physically assaulted those younger royals who were weakening the wards and had to be restrained, shirked her guard post to hunt down and fight strigoi with a suspect moroi who was clearly using offensive magic, then, helped lead a charge that killed off a lot of moroi and guardians when they went back to rescue those who were taken, and afterwards, ran away from the academy before graduating, with adrian's help. that will probably annoy her most of all.

she will not be *impressed*, she will assume rose is reckless and suicidal, and has run away for good. when rose returns, it won't be pleasant for her. again. i don't think the academy would even let her back, or let her graduate or take the guardian promise elsewhere. rose might even be arrested for fraud/theft if the queen really gets upset and decides to take matters into her own hands if she can't get adrian to marry anyone else.

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Lissa needs to find time to hang with Rose as friends and let Rose actually talk about her problems for a change and maybe Lissa would have gotten the secret relationship before anyone.

Ok.. rant is over.

I'm so out...
essa.

Wow, these are great posts.

Anyway. I think Lissa was oblivious, yes, especially considering her talent for reading people. But she's not such a horrible friend. During FB, she stops talking about something that she really wants to share with Rose (Adrian's spirit ability) in order to figure out why Rose has been so depressed. In VA, she acknowledges that Rose does everything for her, and that it's not fair or a balanced friendship- and then she goes out to take care of Rose as a sort of repayment for Rose's protection. In SK, she notices that Rose hasn't been herself, and she tries to cheer her up by landing her a hot masseuse. Granted, it doesn't work, but she made the effort.

Lissa is distracted a great deal by Christian and mastering her spirit abilities in SK, but it's also true that Rose is a good liar. Lissa tries to figure out what's wrong, only to be rebuffed by Rose. And it's not like Lissa can't handle bad news; Dimitri even tells Rose that she's being way too overprotective when it comes to Lissa. (This takes place during the church scene in SK.) Rose protects Lissa from things like shadow-kissed craziness, not because Lissa can't handle it, but because she sees herself as Lissa's protector. If the relationship between Rose and Lissa is distorted, it's not all Lissa's fault.

The closing scene of SK does highlight Lissa's selfishness; I'm not denying that Lissa needs to let Rose go. But remember, Rose just told Lissa that she was going out alone to take down a highly trained Strigoi. I think part of the reason Lissa used compulsion is because she's terrified that Rose is going to her death. Rose is the last member of her family, after all. If my brother wanted to go do something that might end in his death, I'd tie him to a chair until he snapped out of it. Lissa is being selfish, yes- but that is NOT the only reason why she uses compulsion on Rose.

Otherwise, great points, everyone.